This month we look at recent strategic partnership/membership development efforts, and spotlight education accomplishments and upcoming offerings.
Strategic Partnerships/Membership Development
Myself, Patrick Vann, ASA Membership and Chapter Development Manager, and Mike Pratt, ASA Real Property Discipline Committee Chair, attended the 2023 IAAO Annual Conference in Salt Lake City, UT. Our primary focus at the event was to manage the ASA booth, meet with attending leaders and assessors, and share the ASA value proposition and news about the ASA-IAAO strategic partnership that entitles IAAO members a pathway to membership via the Society’s Professional Education Equivalency Certification Program (PEECP) and discounts on ASA Real Property (RP) and Appraisal Review and Management (ARM) educational offerings.
Richard Conti, ASA’s new International Marketing Committee Chair, co-editor of the ARM E-Journal, and ARM Discipline Committee Member At-Large, as well as Terry Taylor, ASA’s new chair of the RP Discipline Membership Subcommittee were also in attendance. It was great having Mike, Richard and Terry at the event due to their shared backgrounds in appraisal and assessing and joint membership in ASA and IAAO.
Education Spotlight
We successfully wrapped our highly attended round of Personal Property POV courses as part of our annual Personal Property Appraisal Virtual Summer Camp.
The team is also exploring international members’ and partnering valuation professional organizations’ (VPOs) professional development needs for International Valuation Standards (IVS) focused Appraisal Review and Management training. Click here to participate in our survey.
Last, we’ll be heading to New Orleans October 1-3 for our 2023 ASA International Conference. There is still time to register and attend onsite or virtually. Local attendees planning to attend the event’s opening ceremonies, annual awards luncheon and sessions are encouraged to register in advance to avoid the lines. Stay tuned for a full event recap in my updates next month.
Looking for more Message from the CEO updates by Johnnie White? Visit ASA’s online newsroom here.
Did you know that ships from prior decades may still be afloat or on display somewhere in the world? While ship lovers may believe that every historic vessel is priceless, the real-world value is less sentimental about their value.
Laskay explained that such vessels are usually under the care of a museum or nonprofit organization that often has some historic or regional ties to displaying – or restoring and displaying – such a piece of history and that historic ships may need to be valued for several reasons like for donations, taxation or loans.
He also discussed important points about the need for USPAP-Compliant Appraisals and the various approaches used to produce credible and supportable appraisals.
Last, the article closed with thoughts on the privilege of being able to walk the decks and nether regions of such vessels and how assignments were interesting and challenging.
Images of vessels included in the article were a PT-305, Presidential Yacht Honey Fitz, The William P. Synder (St. Marys Challenger), Ann Arbor Railroad Carferry Arthur K. Atkinson, and The Queen Mary Hotel.
To purchase an article reprint, visit POWERSHIPS MAGAZINE online here.
What to learn more? Register today for ASA’s ME208 Marine Survey class, to be held September 28-29, 2023, at the Sheraton New Orleans Hotel and virtually, with course instruction by the author, Norm Laskay.
Disclaimer: The views, opinions or examples included in linked article are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect an official policy or position of ASA or its members.
Editor’s Note: When it comes to valuing an asset, there’s no room for error. Qualifications matter. Nobody understands this more than ASA, and member Donald W. Osborne, ASA. Learn more about Osborne below.
The New York City native is known internationally for his recurring segment “Assess & Caress with Donald Osborne” on CNBC Primetime’s show “Jay Leno’s Garage”, in which, for 7 seasons he has shared his considerable knowledge of collector car attributes and values.
The ASA Difference Osborne and Leno discussed their thoughts on the importance of hiring ASA-accredited appraisers in a brief video filmed while onsite at Leno’s infamous garage. Each spoke to why education, accreditation, experience, ethics and membership in a professional organization like ASA are critical factors when seeking to hire professionals who determine value. View the “Qualifications Matter” video here.
Donald’s first book, ‘Stile Transatlantico / Transatlantic Style– A Romance of Fins and Chrome’ was published in 2016 and his writing has been published in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Art & Antiques, Octane, Magneto, Sports Car Market, Road & Track, and other publications. He is also the publisher of Linkage magazine, a glossy quarterly covering the world of life with cars.
He is a 1977 graduate of the Hartt College of Music, West Hartford, CT with a B.A. in Opera. Donald almost literally ‘grew up’ at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, having made three ‘debuts’ with the company. The first, at 13, as a ‘supernumerary’, next at 19 as a baritone in the Extra Chorus in which he sang for 9 seasons, then his solo debut at 29 in the historic production of ‘Porgy and Bess’ in February 1985.
Having been hired for the prestigious R.H. Macy & Co. Executive Training Program in 1978, he worked for the retailer for a year before leaving to pursue his singing career. He returned to the world of retail in 1987, rising through various executive positions including a stint in the Macy’s private label division in which he was responsible for the men’s casual pants, jeans and shorts businesses.
He then created a department for Marketing Communications for all the lines of Macy’s private label products, followed by a varied career in marketing communications which included the creation of his own company ORTV, then eventually to partnership with a cutting-edge digital agency.
In 2004, Donald joined the American Society of Appraisers with accreditation in Personal Property and founded Donald W. Osborne, LLC / Automotive Valuation Services, a classic car appraisal and consulting firm now based in Palm Springs, CA.
He began to consult with the Audrain Collections in 2016 and was a key partner in the creation of the inaugural Audrain Newport Concours & Motor Week in 2019. He joined the Audrain Group as its first CEO in December 2019 and relocated to Newport, Rhode Island in January 2020.
Donald continues to be active in his appraisal business along with his associate Scott King AM, with projects across the United States, the UK and Italy. Connect with Donald online, by e-mail at donaldo@autovalserv.com or by phone at 760-322-7832.
Looking to hire an ASA-accredited appraiser? Use ASA’s complimentary online search tool www.FindanAppraiser.org or call (800) 272-8258.
Looking to become an ASA-accredited appraiser? Visit ASA online or call (800) 272-8258.
Jack Young, ASA, ARM, has been elected as the first member for new ARM Discipline Governor Representative position.
ASA has recently changed its Governance Structure to add new Appraisal Review & Management Discipline Governor Representative position on the ASA Board of Governors with Jack Young as the first elected person for this new position. This new position signifies positive growth for the Appraisal Review and Management discipline, giving new opportunities to grow and expand ASA’s ARM membership.
Young has dual Accredited Senior Appraiser designations with ASA in Machinery and Equipment (MTS) and in Appraisal Review and Management (ARM). Based in California’s Sacramento Valley, he has been a machinery and equipment appraiser for over twenty years, providing equipment appraisals, appraisal review, and expert witness services for litigation, family law, family law, ad valorem tax, estate & insurance disputes, financial reporting, business combinations / dissolutions, corporate conversions, and due diligence. Young is approved to do appraisal work for United States Treasury Department and Department of Interior. He has appraised a wide variety of equipment types from food, wine and other industrial processing plants to commercial trucking, agricultural, and construction equipment.
Recognized in 2021-2022 as ASA Appraiser of the Year, Young has served the ASA internationally as Chair of the Appraisal Review & Management (ARM) subcommittee, on the Board of Examiners, and as a member of the Ethics Board of Inquiry. Having developed and taught many ASA courses, including the Principles of Valuation courses for the Appraisal Review and Management designation, AR201, AR202, and AR204, he is one of the main ASA course developers. He is an active member of the Northern California Chapter where he served as Chapter President and ARM Director and is currently editor of the ASA’s Appraisal Review E-journal.
The requirements to be an expert witness can be broken down into two categories – the legal requirements for being an expert witness and perhaps more importantly, the practical requirements for being an expert witness.
Legal Requirements for providing Expert Witness Services
The legal requirements for being an expert witness are fairly minimal. According to Federal Rule of Evidence 702, expert witnesses must have “knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education” which will “help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue.” This is a very broad standard. Under this standard most adults could probably be qualified as an expert witness on something. Two other legal requirements are somewhat common and will vary depending on jurisdiction. First, some states require physicians testifying as an expert witness in a medical malpractice case to be of the same specialty as the defendant. Some states may also require an expert witness testifying in that state to have a license in that state or face charges of practicing without a license.
Practical Requirements for providing Expert Witness Services
The practical requirements for serving as an expert witness are far more extensive. Some of the practical expert witness requirements include:
Demand for your area(s) of expertise. The areas(s) of your expertise need to be ones that litigators are looking for or you will get no work.
The ability to always meet and beat deadlines. Litigation is deadline driven.
A competitive spirit and commitment to excellence. Expert witness services should not be provided half-heartedly.
A lack of skeletons in your closet such as criminal convictions, license revocations, controversial past writings, doing poorly or being disqualified on a past expert witness assignment, etc.
Having a schedule that is somewhat flexible to allow for depositions and trial appearances.
Having enough free time to be able to turn assignments on deadline – this may necessitate working nights and weekends.
Having an employer who allows you to serve as an expert witness.
Being thick skinned. Expert witnessing is not for the thin skinned. The opposing side will make it their mission to challenge your work and credentials and paint you as unqualified, sloppy, less than honest, a hired gun, etc.
Communication skills. Expert witnesses lacking in verbal and written communication skills are useless.
A CV so that retaining counsel can review your qualifications.
A fee schedule, or better yet, an expert witness contract.
Having excellent organizational, investigative, and research skills.
This month we look at efforts to grow ASA and support the global valuation profession, including travels to Japan and Korea, new association leadership opportunities, continued professional development innovation and countdown to the profession’s main event.
Shaping the Future of Valuation in Japan
Travel activities included my visit to Japan where I met with ASA members, discussed future plans and spent time with local educators.
The following day, I participated in a very productive meeting discussing the formation of a Valuation Professional Organization (VPO) in Japan. ASA is looking forward to supporting this initiative and partnering with the new organization once it is established.
I next spent time with faculty members of Kyoto University to discuss future plans to establish a partnership to help the valuation profession in Japan.
Afterwards I traveled to Korea to meet with leadership of the Korea Association of Property Appraisers (KAPA) who we have established a partnership whereby we are educating their members in the area of Business Valuation.
Association Leadership Opportunities
I was nominated to serve as an At-large Director for the American Society of Association Executives (ASAE) and ASAE Research Foundation Boards of Directors, with my term beginning September 1, 2023. ASAE is a membership organization of more than 47,000 association executives and industry partners. ASAE is the premier source of learning, knowledge, and future-oriented research for the association and nonprofit profession and provides resources, education, ideas, and advocacy to enhance the power and performance of the association and nonprofit community. It is both an honor and an opportunity for me to share the successes of our Society with leaders in other industries.
The new virtual Litigation in Valuation Conference, with support from event sponsor Marcum, will be ASA’s first-ever litigation specific conference and a must-attend event for business valuers, financial experts, litigation counsel and judges.
Additionally, the live in-person 2023 ASA Aircraft Asset Management Special Event, with support from event sponsor JSSI, will build off its highly successful debut last year, and provide a unique educational program for aircraft appraisers and lenders. In addition to the event’s education and networking opportunities, it’s Las Vegas location and conveniently being held prior to the NBAA Business Aviation Convention & Exhibition are added bonuses for attendees.
The Profession’s Main Event
Last, countdown to our 2023 ASA International Conference is quickly winding down. This year’s event promises to provide the most informative sessions and leading expert presenters, along with valuable networking, fun events, special explore NOLA tours, and opportunities to meet innovative sponsors. I encourage you to take advantage of early registration savings available through August 4 and look forward to meeting with you AND your colleagues or junior staff. See you in New Orleans!
Looking for more Message from the CEO updates by Johnnie White? Visit ASA’s online newsroom here.
Did you know that consumers and your fellow members are searching ASA’s website daily for valuation experts? The Society has grown to become the go-to trusted source for qualified professionals in ALL appraisal specialties. Last fiscal year (July 1, 2022-June 30, 2023) over 3,000 members had their website profile viewed, that’s over two-thirds of total membership. Combined, the overall number of page views totaled more 30,000 with visitors staying on the page for an average of nearly two minutes. So how can members better take advantage of ASA’s Find an Appraiser(FAA) and online Membership Directory search tools for finding other members or being found? Let’s take a closer look.
Important Note: Members must opt in to this member benefit.
This resource provides quick and easy access to search for participating members by a number of parameters, including name, country, state, distance, primary discipline, specialty, purpose of appraisal, industry, as well as options like performs appraisals over the internet, experienced with IRS appraisals, experience as an expert witness or appraisals for personal relationship dissolution. There is also an option to include keywords in searches. The logic behind this tool is largely driven by data input by the participating member. This means the more complete and search-friendly information added the higher the potential for more page visits.
To opt in or edit your profile, login to the ASA website and click “My FAA Profile.” You can add a photo to your listing, indicate your industry and include your areas of expertise.
Important Note: This resource is exclusively for members. Unlike the Find an Appraiser search tool, all ASA members will be in the directory unless they opt out.
To access the directory, hover over the “Membership” tab on the menu of the ASA website, and select “Member Directory” from the dropdown menu.
Put the ASA multidiscipline membership advantage to work for you today by making sure you follow these tips on finding and being found for referrals.If you have any questions about FAA or the Membership Directory, please call ASA HQ at (800) 272-8258 or email asainfo@appraisers.org.
ASA International Conference is the leading event for the global valuation profession. Celebrating its 86th year, the Conference attracts thought leaders, practitioners, allied professionals, vendor partners, government agency personnel, and more from all parts of the world. This paramount event provides an experience unlike other appraisal conferences, offering timely content for all appraisal professionals spanning Business Valuation, Personal Property, Machinery & Equipment, Real Property, Gems & Jewelry as well as Appraisal Review & Management.
Available in a hybrid format, the ASAIC23 offers the convenience of both live and virtual programming where you can learn and connect in your preferred environment. Join us on-site in New Orleans or from the comfort of your home or office—the choice is yours! Both formats allow you to explore the latest ideas, trends and best practices and interact and engage with fellow professionals. Don’t miss this exciting celebration of exceptional education and networking with leaders in the appraisal profession.
Carlos Lavin, ASA, MRICS, is an industry veteran, having completed appraisals in 20+ countries over 30+ years. His valuation experience encompasses projects in the private, public and industrial sectors. Carlos holds the prestigious ASA, MRICS and PQS designations and have mentored junior appraisers for more than a decade. Carlos is the president of Appraisals International, a leading global insurance company, with employees and established subcontractor network in four continents.
Alex Steele, ASA, has extensive background in the appraisal and liquidation of assets ranging from complex high technology to process machinery and inventories. Broad experience as expert witness in arbitration and litigation support. Work recognized by major financial institutions across the country and internationally. Qualified as an Expert in State and Federal Courts in California and Colorado as well as in numerous counties for Ad Valorem Assessment Appeals.
Brandon Steele, ASA, CFA. is a designated CFA and ASA member who performs both business valuations and equipment appraisals to a wide range of clients and industries. Brandon first became a member of ASA in 2011 and served as President of the San Diego ASA Chapter (2020-2022).
Raymond A. Springer, ASA, is the President and Owner of Springer Appraisal & Consulting. He has over fifty years of experience valuing machinery assets for a wide range of purposes including lending, accounting, Federal tax, property tax, condemnation, and litigation. Ray has belonged to ASA since 1973 serving in various local chapter positions over those years. Ray was one of the main editors of Valuing Machinery & Equipment (1st edition ~1997). Ray has particular depth in the food process and forest products industries as well as condemnation litigation.
John Bouley has been selling used equipment specializing in heat treat furnaces and industrial baking ovens since 1973. As a member of MDNA (Machinery Dealers National Association). In addition to and extensive inventory, Furnace Brokers International maintains the largest database of available heat treating equipment in the world. Along with equipment sales and buying, Furnace Brokers does appraisals and exports worldwide. If we do not have it in stock, chances are we can find it.
Charlie Dixon, ASA (MTS-ARM), CSA, is president and owner of CD Valuations Services, In. An ASA member for over 30 years, Charlie is an Accredited Senior Appraiser in the MTS and ARM disciplines of ASA, a Certified Senior Appraiser of the Equipment Appraisers of North America (EANA), and an Appraisal Qualifications Board (AQB) Certified USPAP Instructor (personal property). In addition to teaching USPAP, he is an instructor for ASA of POV courses, including AR201, ME201 & 202, and various seminars on report writing, appraisal best practices, and other issues. He has served the ASA internationally on the Machinery & Technical Specialties (MTS) Committee for over ten years and for two years as MTS Discipline Governor. As an active member of the Philadelphia ASA chapter, Charlie served as Chapter President and was awarded the George D. Sinclair Award for Professionalism. Charlie currently serves the ASA on the Educational Foundation, the Board of Examiners (ARM), and as co-editor of the ARM e-journal and he is the Appraisal Review Chair for EANA.
David Pietig, ASA, CEA, has 26 years of industrial equipment experience, specializing in the marketing, purchase, sale, liquidation, and valuation of plants, machinery, and related industrial assets. He has extensive experience relative to production blow molding, blown film, extrusion, injection molding, and thermoforming machinery, in addition to the full range of ancillary and support equipment common to the plastics processing industry. He attended Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa earning a Bachelor of Arts degree in Journalism and Mass Communications with an emphasis in Advertising and minors in English and Spanish. He also attended North Park University in Chicago, Illinois earning his Master of Business Administration degree. David has earned the designation of Accredited Senior Appraiser as administered by the ASA. In addition, David has been accredited with the Association of Machinery & Equipment Appraisers and maintains a Certified Equipment Appraiser (“CEA”) designation.
Alan Clarke has been the President of Arlington Machinery for over 16 years. Arlington Machinery is a used plastics equipment company established in 1987 and located in Chicago area. Alan has participated in liquidations of various industrial facilities in a range of locations in North America. He has extensive experience relative to all areas of plastics machinery to include blow molding, extrusion, injection molding, and thermoforming. Alan has a keen understanding of the value of plastics processing equipment and ancillary equipment as he is involved in buying and selling it every day. Alan earned a Bachelor of Science degree from the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. Alan is a recognized industry expert in plastics industry and previously has been named as one of Plastics News’ Rising Stars.
Douglas Krieser, ASA, FRICS, has performed valuations for over 35 years. He is the Managing Director at Valcon Partners, LTD. He is a Past-President of the American Society of Appraisers (ASA), past Chair of the Board of Examiners, has served on the MTS Committee and on various committees and task forces for both the ASA and the Appraisal Foundation. He has been teaching and writing ASA courses, webinars and presentations for over 17 years. Mr. Krieser specializes in valuations for financial reporting, ad valorem tax and litigation purposes, and has performed and supervised valuations throughout the United States, Europe, Asia, and South America. In addition to his valuation experience, Mr. Krieser is regarded as an expert witness and has testified in several states regarding personal property tax matters and in federal bankruptcy court. In addition to authoring articles for various value-related publications and being a contributing author to various textbooks published by the ASA, Mr. Krieser has presented at national conferences on a variety of valuation and regulatory related topics.
Jamie Allen, ASA, is Executive Vice President at Newmark. She has over 20 years of experience in MTS appraisals. Ms. Allen has been a designated member of ASA for 10 years, and an active volunteer with numerous leadership positions, including most notably serving as Chair of the International MTS Committee, IAC Committee Co-chair, textbook editor, and course instructor.
Adrian Galis, ASA, is a director and leads the Machinery & Equipment group at RSM US LLP. He has over 30 years experience in valuing machinery and equipment located around the world and specializes in industries such as energy, chemical, consumer, industrial and infrastructure for financial and tax reporting purposes Under US GAAP. Mr. Galis also completed a 3 year rotation (2006-2009) in the Moscow, Russia office of a Big 4 firm performing tangible asset valuations under IFRS standards.
Joshua Abbey, ASA, is Director at Suncorp Valuations. He has over 17 years of experience in Industrial Valuation work, specializing in pulp and paper, and the lumber industry. Mr. Abbey has been a designated member of ASA for 12 years, and an active volunteer with numerous leadership positions, including most notably serving as president of the Milwaukee ASA chapter.
ASA International Conference is the leading event for the global valuation profession. Celebrating its 86th year, the Conference attracts thought leaders, practitioners, allied professionals, vendor partners, government agency personnel, and more from all parts of the world. This paramount event provides an experience unlike other appraisal conferences, offering timely content for all appraisal professionals spanning Business Valuation, Personal Property, Machinery & Equipment, Real Property, Gems & Jewelry as well as Appraisal Review & Management.
Available in a hybrid format, the ASAIC23 offers the convenience of both live and virtual programming where you can learn and connect in your preferred environment. Join us on-site in New Orleans or from the comfort of your home or office—the choice is yours! Both formats allow you to explore the latest ideas, trends and best practices and interact and engage with fellow professionals. Don’t miss this exciting celebration of exceptional education and networking with leaders in the appraisal profession.
Carla Nunes, CFA, ABV, is a Managing Director in the Office of Professional Practice of Kroll and a Kroll Institute Fellow. In addition, Ms. Nunes is the Global Leader of Kroll’s Valuation Digital Solutions group, which produces cost of capital thought leadership content and data housed in the Cost of Capital Navigator. She has over 25 years of experience in valuation, financial reporting and tax, conducting numerous business and asset valuations for a variety of purposes including purchase price allocations, goodwill and asset impairments, mergers & acquisitions, tax restructuring, debt analysis, and gift and estate tax planning. Ms. Nunes also has extensive experience working with multinational companies, having addressed complex tax, international cost of capital, and foreign exchange issues. She is a co-author of the “Valuation Handbook” series and co-creator of the Kroll Cost of Capital Navigator. Ms. Nunes is a Practitioner Director in the Board of FMA International.
James P. Harrington is a Director in Kroll’s Valuation Digital Solutions group, which produces the content and data housed in the Cost of Capital Navigator at kroll.com/costofcapitalnavigator. James provides technical support on client engagements involving cost of capital and business valuation matters. Previously, James was director of valuation research in Morningstar’s Financial Communications Business. James is co-author of the “Valuation Handbook” series with colleagues Carla Nunes and Roger Grabowski. James is co-author of the Stocks, Bonds, Bills, and Inflation® Summary Edition with Roger Ibbotson (Professor in the Practice Emeritus of Finance at Yale School of Management). James is a contributing author to Cost of Capital: Applications and Examples, 5th edition, by Shannon P. Pratt and Roger J. Grabowski. James is a contributing author to Shannon Pratt’s Valuing a Business – The Analysis and Appraisal of Closely Held Companies, Sixth ed.
Marina Kagan is a partner in the Financial Analytics and Derivatives group at PwC, with 17+ years of industry experience. Marina advises clients on valuation of complex securities for tax, financial reporting and risk management, including fixed income, commodity, and equity derivatives, contingent assets/liabilities, earnouts, and intellectual property. Marina also assists private and public companies with valuation of equity securities, stock compensation grants, and structuring financing transactions. Marina’s extensive experience in financial engineering and data analytics allows her to assist clients with assessing risks and quantifying uncertainties in deals through simulation models, decision analysis, and data visualization. Prior to joining PwC, Marina worked as an Associate Director at Fitch ratings. Marina holds an MS in Mathematics in Finance from New York University, and a BS in Computational Mathematics from the City University of New York.
Josh Schaeffer, Ph.D, is Managing Director at Equity Methods. He has over 15 years in the field of valuation, focusing on areas of equity compensation and derivative valuation. Dr. Schaeffer is frequently involved in valuations and consulting for management planning, financial reporting, tax, and litigation. He is also a nationally recognized presenter and author on these topics. Dr. Schaeffer also leads a team of over 25 professionals in these areas.
Bruce Johnson, ASA, is an accredited senior appraiser of the ASA and former member of the ASA’s Board of Governors and Business Valuation Committee. He is the course developer and instructor for the ASA’s BV203 education program on discounts and premiums. Mr. Johnson is a board member of the Corporate Finance Certificate Program at Texas A&M University and has been published on a wide range of valuation topics in several accounting, business, finance and valuation publications and bar journals. He is also a contributing author for PPC’s Guide to Business Valuation, McGraw Hill’s Valuing a Business and Partnership Profiles’ Comprehensive Guide for the Valuation of Family Limited Partnerships. He is an instructor and course developer for Partnership Profiles “Valuing Family Limited Partnerships” seminars and was the expert witness for the taxpayer in the landmark tax cases of the Estate of Elsie J. Church and Estate of Emily Klauss.
Kevin M. Zanni, ASA, CEIVTM, CVA, CBA, CFE, is the Chicago office director and the leader of the Willamette transaction opinion services practice. His practice includes valuation consulting, economic damages analysis, transfer pricing analysis, complex business transaction analysis, and financial advisory services. Kevin has over 20 years of experience that includes serving as an expert witness, writing fair value and fair market value opinion reports, and extensive manuscript authorship.
Eric Dollin, ASA, is a Director in the valuation and ESOP advisory services group at GBQ Capital Advisors, a national ESOP consulting and valuation practice with over 20 professionals and completing 300+ valuation engagements annually, including 75-100 ESOP-related engagements per year, including annual update valuations, transaction advisory, feasibility studies, and implementation consulting. Eric’s practice specializes in ESOP formations, valuations, transactions, and consulting, as well as valuations for other reasons including corporate and shareholder planning, transaction advisory, and various others. Eric has been active within The ESOP Association for 15+ years and is a frequent speaker on valuation, finance, and ESOP-related issues.
Hillary Hughes, ASA, CFA, joined Prairie Capital Advisors in 2011 and is a shareholder in the firm. She provides strategic insights to assist business owners and boards of directors to address long-term ownership transaction goals. Hillary has been highly involved in the structuring and valuation related to employee stock ownership plans (ESOPs) on behalf of ESOP Trustees as well as business owners. Hillary provides financial advisory services to clients ranging from small family-owned businesses to large multi-national conglomerates. She specializes in the valuation of businesses and business interests for purposes of mergers and acquisitions (M&A), ESOPs, gift and estate planning and strategic planning. Hillary is also instrumental in developing Prairie’s trust-side ESOP practice.
Antonella Puca, CPA/ABC, CFA, is a Partner with BlueVal Group LLC. Antonella has over 20 years of experience in the alternative investment industry, with particular expertise in the valuation of private equity and venture-backed companies and carried interest for financial reporting, tax reporting and litigation purposes. Antonella is the author of Early Stage Valuation (Wiley: 2020). She is a frequent speaker at professional conferences, industry events and academia in the US and abroad. Antonella has served as an executive Board Member of the CFA Society of New York, member of AIMA’s research committee and member of the AICPA Business Valuation committee. She is the recipient of the 2021 Business Valuation Volunteer of the Year Award of the AICPA.
Justin Kuczmarski, MBA, CPA, CVA, ABV, CEIV™, CDBV, CIRA, CFF, is the President of NAV Valuation & Advisory LLC. He is a dual M&A investment banker and valuation expert. He has advised on over 150 transactions in his 23-year career. He specializes in technology and healthcare M&A banking and financial valuations for private equity and venture capital funds. He is a frequent technology earnings and M&A commentator for Fox Business Network, Yahoo! Finance, TD Ameritrade Network, i-24, and several global networks. He is also currently an independent director and incoming Chairman of the Audit Committee of an emerging technology company. He is the sole author of the 300-page guidebook entitled The Executive’s Guide to Business Valuation. Mr. Kuczmarski holds a BA in Politics from Princeton University, a dual MBA in Finance and Accounting for Fordham University’s Gabelli Graduate School of Business and a Certificate in Mergers & Acquisitions from Columbia Business School.
Karl Schwabauer, CPA, CFF, CVA, is a managing director with Baker Tilly’s global forensics and litigation services practice. With more than 20 years of experience providing forensic accounting, economic damages and valuation services. He also has extensive experience testifying at trial, deposition, arbitration and as a court-appointed expert in support of the work he has performed. Karl has developed the trust and respect of his clients and the extensive list of law firms that he has worked with over the years.
Asif H. Charania, ASA, CPA, ABV, CFF, is a partner at Keiter CPA firm and is the department leader of Keiter’s Valuation and Forensics Services Group. He has over 15 years of experience in providing valuation consulting and litigation support services. He has previously qualified as an expert witness in various circuit courts and retained in several litigation services matters. Asif’s practice is split equally between valuation and litigation support services. He has expertise in appraisals for estate/gift tax purposes, financial reporting, stock-based compensation, and complex securities. His litigation support experience includes divorce, shareholder disputes, theft of IP, and lost earnings calculations.
Matt A. Woolf has a broad range of experience intervening on behalf of clients with government agencies and elected officials. He also provides legal and legislative counsel to trade associations and routinely speaks at national and state conferences on legal and policy issues. Clients rely on Matt to navigate the ever-changing aspects of health law and policy. He works proactively with clients to ensure compliance and minimize violations. Matt provides counsel to health care clients who are growing, exiting, or otherwise adapting to the increasingly complex health care industry.
Brent Sloan, ASA, CEIVTM, IA, is a Managing Director at Stout and specializes in the valuation of public and closely held businesses and business segments, intangible assets, intellectual property, and related matters for purposes of financial statement reporting, tax planning, reorganizations and restructuring, corporate planning, litigation support, fairness/solvency opinions, and more. Across his 22 years of valuation experience, Brent’s primary focus has been in providing intangible asset purchase price allocations for financial statement and tax reporting purposes. Prior to joining Stout, Brent served as Managing Director for Vantage Point Advisors (VPA). Prior to joining VPA, he served as a Senior Director for Alvarez & Marsal Valuation Services (A&M) and was the Financial Reporting Valuation Leader for the West Coast as well as the National Telecommunications Valuation Leader. Before A&M, Mr. Sloan served as a Senior Manager within Grant Thornton’s Valuation Services Group and was the Telecommunications Valuation Co‐Leader.
Roger Grabowski, FASA, is a Managing Director, Valuation Services, at Kroll, LLC (previously Duff & Phelps). He has over 40 years of experience in valuation services, and has directed valuations of businesses, interests in businesses, intellectual property, intangible assets, real property and machinery and equipment, as well as been recognized in various courts as an expert on matters of solvency, the value of closely held businesses and business interests, valuation and amortization of intangible assets and other valuation issues. He has co-authored a variety of publications and books, most recenly as a contributing author to Shannon Pratt’s Valuing a Business – The Analysis and Appraisal of Closely Held Companies 6th ed. (McGraw-Hill, 2022). Mr. Grabowski has been a designated member of ASA for 44 years.
Ashok Abbott, Ph.D., is Associate Professor of Finance at West Virginia State University. Dr. Abbott’s areas of research and teaching include mergers and acquisitions, corporate valuation, and measures of market liquidity. His consulting areas are valuation discounts and premiums, valuation model validation, passive appreciation, and event studies.
Stephanie Loomis-Price, is a Partner at Perkins Coie LLP. She represents taxpayers in federal gift and estate tax litigation against the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), as well as in state fiduciary and probate controversy work. In her national practice, she has assisted clients in numerous federal tax cases in the U.S. Tax Court, the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, and the U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fifth, Eighth, and Eleventh Circuits. In addition, she has appeared before state, district and county probate courts in Texas. Stephanie advises clients regarding estate administration and helps them minimize litigation and audit risks. She prepares, reviews, and files federal transfer tax returns and assists trustees and beneficiaries with judicial and nonjudicial modifications to irrevocable trusts. Stephanie also obtains private letter rulings (PLR) from the IRS on estate, gift, and generation-skipping transfer tax matters. Stephanie regularly speaks nationwide on topics related to gift and estate tax matters.
Marissa Pepe Turrell, ASA, CVA, is a director in the Firm’s Valuation, Forensics & Litigation Services group and heads Marcum’s Estate and Gift Tax Valuation practice. She has over 18 years of experience providing business valuations, financial analyses, financial modeling and litigation support for private and public clients that span a variety of industries. Ms. Turrell’s valuation experience includes appraising companies for gift and estate tax purposes, family law, shareholder disputes, succession planning, financial reporting, equity buy-in and redemptions, and mergers and acquisitions. Ms. Turrell has been a designated member of ASA for over 12 years.
Justin Burgess has more than 17 years of experience providing valuation services with a focus on valuation of intangible assets, including trademarks and trade names, patents and developed technology, customer relationships, and various other intangible assets. His experience spans a wide range of industries, including healthcare, biotech, energy, technology, manufacturing, distribution, and industrial products. He is responsible for assisting clients with a variety of valuation engagements primarily related to pre-deal mergers and acquisitions activity, financial reporting, and tax strategy, involving the valuation of businesses, debt and equity securities, partnerships, and intangible assets. His clients include public corporations, private companies, hedge funds, private equity firms, and partnerships. Mr. Burgess has extensive experience providing fair value analyses to assist with purchase price allocations, impairment testing, stock compensation, and investment portfolio reporting. He has assisted clients with tax matters involving equity-based compensation, corporate restructuring, asset transfers, gift and estate tax, and tax planning.
Kurt Huie, ASA, is responsible for executing and managing a variety of tangible personal property valuation engagements. Mr. Huie has experience in the valuation of Master Limited Partnership drop downs, oil and gas infrastructure, and complex facilities. He has managed or assisted on personal property tangible asset appraisals for financial and tax reporting, property tax, and insurance purposes. Mr. Huie has valued assets throughout North America, South America, Asia, and Africa for clients in a diverse range of industries, including oil and gas, mining, agriculture, pharmaceutical, public sector, chemical process, hospitality, and consumer goods.
Sarah von Helfenstein, MBA, has over 27 years of experience and has served as a valuation professional and educator in public accounting firms, for the AICPA and American Society of Appraisers, and on her own. During this time, she valued businesses, fractional interests, and intangible assets for a wide range of purposes. She also performed seminal valuation research for the Department of Defense Office of Force Transformation. Sarah has published/presented extensively in the U.S. and internationally She has developed valuation courses, exams, curricula, and conferences, and edited a number of key valuation books. She is editor of “The Art of Valuation”, a book to be published by The Appraisal Foundation in Q1 2023. She was 2022 Chair of the Business Valuation Resource Panel of The Appraisal Foundation. She has been an active, designated member of the National Association of Certified Valuators and Analysts, of which she was named Outstanding Member in June 2018.
Kenneth J. Pia, ASA, CPA, ABV, MCBA, is a partner and the leader of the National Matrimonial and Business Valuation groups of Marcum LLP. With more than 30 years of professional business valuation and litigation support experience, Mr. Pia has developed a national reputation working on a wide range of complex valuation engagements. He has performed valuations of businesses and partial business interests for a variety of purposes including, but not limited to, family law matters, employee stock ownership plans, business damages, buy-sell agreements, shareholder litigation, estate and gift tax matters, and buying and selling businesses. Ken is a past Chair of the American Society of Appraisers (ASA) Business Valuation Committee and a member of the National Business Valuation Education Sub Committee. Mr. Pia is also a Co-Chair of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers Foundation’s Forensic & Business Valuation Division. Ken is qualified as an expert witness in Federal District Court and State Courts of Connecticut, Florida, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, New York, Virginia and California as well as various arbitration proceedings. He has also rendered extensive services relating to court testimony.
Jay E. Fishman, FASA, FRICS, is a Managing Director of Financial Research Associates and has been actively engaged in the appraisal profession since 1974. He specializes in the valuations of business enterprises and their intangible assets. Mr. Fishman has co-authored several books, including the Guide to Business Valuations, Standards of Value, A Consensus View Q&A Guide to Financial Valuation and The Business Valuation Bench Book. He has also written numerous articles on business valuations as well as qualifying as an expert witness and providing testimony in twelve states. He has taught courses on business valuation to the Internal Revenue Service, the National Judicial College, the Hong Kong Society of Accountants and on behalf of the World Bank in St. Petersburg, Russia. He taught courses in Moscow, Russia and for the Slovenian Institute of Auditors in Ljubljana, Slovenia. In 2020, in full recognition of his outstanding services in the Society and contributions to the appraisal profession, the American Society of Appraisers gave him their Lifetime Achievement Award.
Alexander Aronsohn, FRICS, is a Chartered Surveyor with long and wide-ranging experience encompassing residential asset management, commercial and residential development, rating, national and international valuation and investment. Alexander is the IVSC Director of Technical Standards for Tangible Assets Boards and assists the IVSC Standards Review Board and its Asset Boards on drafting IVS, perspectives papers, presentations, training and articles. In addition, Alexander has a leading role in various International Standards Coalitions and is the Executive Secretary of the International Property Measurement Standards Coalition Standard Setting Committee, the International Ethical Standards Coalition Standard Setting Committee and the International Land Measurement Standards Standard Setting Committee. Prior to joining the IVSC Alexander was the RICS Director of Technical Standards and was also the Executive Secretary of the International Fire Safety Standards Coalition Standard Setting Committee (SSC) and a member of the International Construction Measurement Standards Coalition Standard Setting Committee.
Robert Schlegel, CPA, CFF, CVA, is a past International President of ASA, taught all four courses for accreditation in BV, taught going-concern course for RP, widely published in professional journals including BVR and a forthcoming chapter in a new TAF book on using good judgement in BV. He is a principal at Houlihan Valuation Advisors in Indianapolis as a general BV appraiser for over 30 years.
William H. Frazier, ASA, has been a senior member of the American Society of Appraisers (ASA) since 1987. He has served on various boards and committees of the ASA over the years. Will has participated as an appraiser and/or expert witness in several U.S. Tax Court cases, including Grieve, Steinberg, Hendrix, Jelke, McCord, Dunn, and Gladys Cook. He have written numerous articles on the subject of business valuation appearing in such publications as the Trusts & Estates, Business Valuation Review, Valuation Strategies, BV E-Letter, and Estate Planning. He is a contributing author to The Cost of Capital and Valuing a Business.
Jeffrey S. Tarbell, ASA, CFA, is a Director in the Financial Valuation and Advisory practice of Houlihan Lokey Financial Advisors, Inc. He has more than three decades of experience providing valuations, financial opinions, and expert witness testimony regarding private and publicly traded companies. Mr. Tarbell is Head of the firm’s Estate and Gift Tax Valuation practice, Co-Head of the firm’s Employee Stock Ownership Plan Valuation practice, and a member of the firm’s Technical Standards Committee. Mr. Tarbell is an Accredited Senior Appraiser of the ASA and a member of its Board of Governors. he holds the designation of Chartered Financial Analyst of the CFA Institute. He is registered with FINRA (formerly the NASD) as a General Securities Representative (Series 7 and 63) and a Limited Representative – Investment Banking (Series 79). He has testified in various forums, including state, federal, and tax courts, a congressional hearing, Department of Labor panels, as well as in arbitration, mediation, and deposition proceedings.
Riley J. Busenlener, ASA, CPA/ABV, AEP®, JD, is a Vice President at Chaffe & Associates, Inc. He has over 17 years of experience in business valuations for a wide range of tax reporting and litigation purposes. He teaches business valuation and accounting at local universities and is a member of the Appraisal Standards Board. Mr. Busenlener has been a designated member of ASA for over 12 years having served as Treasurer and President of the Harold S. Clark, New Orleans Chapter.
Vanessa Brown Claiborne, ASA, CPA/ABV, AEP®, is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Chaffe & Associates, Inc. She is a CPA, ABV by the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants and has received her designation as an ASA by the American Society of Appraisers.Ms. Claiborne is also AEP by the National Association of Estate Planners and Councils. She specializes in business valuation services primarily for estate and gift taxes, ESOPs, GAAP fair value reporting, financial reporting, business interruption claims, litigation support including expert testimony, exit planning, and shareholder transactions. Mr. Claiborne is active both in many organizations including the American Society of Appraisers, serving as Governor of the International Board of Governors 2003-2007, Association for Corporate Growth, Isidore Newman School, American Red Cross, and the Agenda for Children. She recently received the 2021 LCPA Women to Watch Most Experienced Leader Award.
Barry Cunningham has been appraising real estate and consulting on real estate related litigation for thirty-five years. He has worked in over forty states and participated in hundreds of informal negotiations, settlement conferences, and mediations. He has testified before administrative bodies and tribunals and participated in trials in state and federal courts across the country. Half of his appraisal and consulting work is completed for public entities (cities, towns, and counties) and half for private property owners. He has a BA in Liberal Arts with an emphasis in Economics from Charter Oak State College and a master’s and PhD in Education from Capella University. He also holds the prestigious MAI and AI-GRS designations from the Appraisal Institute and the ASA designation from the American Society of Appraisers. He has completed a rigorous and unparalleled 18-credit graduate school Certificate in Mediation and Conflict Resolution from Champlain College’s Woodbury Institute.
Adam M. Smith, ASA, ABV, MRICS, is a Managing Director and technical leader at PwC with over 20 years of experience in business valuation – both performing and auditing valuations. For the last ten years he has been heavily involved with standard-setting, having spent time working at the FASB and the IVSC.
ASA International Conference is the leading event for the global valuation profession. Celebrating its 86th year, the Conference attracts thought leaders, practitioners, allied professionals, vendor partners, government agency personnel, and more from all parts of the world. This paramount event provides an experience unlike other appraisal conferences, offering timely content for all appraisal professionals spanning Business Valuation, Personal Property, Machinery & Equipment, Real Property, Gems & Jewelry as well as Appraisal Review & Management.
Available in a hybrid format, the ASAIC23 offers the convenience of both live and virtual programming where you can learn and connect in your preferred environment. Join us on-site in New Orleans or from the comfort of your home or office—the choice is yours! Both formats allow you to explore the latest ideas, trends and best practices and interact and engage with fellow professionals. Don’t miss this exciting celebration of exceptional education and networking with leaders in the appraisal profession.
Charles E. Blau, Esq. ASA, CRE, is a partner at Blau & Blau. He has over 40 years of experience in real estate appraising and law specializing in valuation issues in litigation. Mr. Blau is a designated member of ASA and has served on the Real Property Committee. Mr. Blau is also a past national President of the National Association of Independent Fee Appraisers and has appeared on CNN, the Wall Street Journal and the New Jersey Law Journal. He has qualified as an expert witness on valuation issues before United States Bankruptcy Courts, US District Court, New Jersey Tax Court and the Superior Court of New Jersey as well as trying valuation matters as an attorney.
Casey Karlsen, ASA, is a manager in BerryDunn’s Valuation Services Group. He provides business valuation and consulting services to clients for annual ESOP valuations, merger and acquisition, gift and estate tax reporting, bank financing, shareholder buyouts, and other purposes. Casey is passionate about sharing his valuation expertise through conversations, presentations, articles, blogposts, podcasts, and most recently, as a coauthor of “A Field Guide to Business Valuation,” published by Business Valuation Resources.
Seth Webber, ASA, CFA, CEPA, CBA, CVA, has brought his combination of valuation, consulting, and operations skills to bear for his clients since joining BerryDunn in 2007. Seth helps his clients navigate challenging issues related to business valuation. As head of the Valuation Services Group, he leads a diverse team of valuation experts that draw on the deep resources of BerryDunn to help clients address their needs. Seth is heavily involved in working with clients to define and execute transition plans, including valuations relating to ESOPs, management buyouts, sales, and gifting. A talented public speaker, Seth enjoys sharing his valuation expertise through relatable analogies and examples at national conferences, networking events, and in conversations with business owners, advisors, and fellow valuation professionals. Seth and Casey recently authored an introductory book to business valuation titled “A Field Guide to Business Valuation,” published by Business Valuation Resources.
Jason A. Tillema, SRA, AI-RRS, ASA, IFA, is co-owner of Access Valuation and Education Resources. He has 25 years of experience appraising various types of residential properties for divorce, estate, litigation and mortgage-related assignments. He has been teaching qualifying and continuing education since 2014. Mr. Tillema is a designated member of the Appraisal Institute and the American Society of Appraisers and served as President of the Hoosier State Chapter of the Appraisal Institute in 2014. He is a REALTOR/member of MIBOR and served on the MIBOR Board of Directors from 2014-2016.
Ray Martinez, Ph.D., manages the design, development, and delivery of technology-based education at the Appraisal Institute. This includes online, virtual, webinar, and hybrid programs, and most recently, PAREA. Dr. Martinez also teaches graduate courses in instructional design, instructional technology, assessment, and educational psychology. In his spare time, he plays way too much soccer.
Mark W. Shirley, CPA/ABV/CFF, CVA, MAFF, CFE, is the managing partner of V&L Consultants, LLP and has over thirty-five years of experience in the valuation of business interests, financial modeling and forecasting. Since 1999, Mr. Shirley has developed presentations, course materials and contributed to professional periodicals and published texts on Statistics and Statistical Fallacies in appraisal practice. Published materials include the core statistics course for the MAFF accreditation and contributions to The Cost of Capital, BVR Special Reports, T71e Valuation Examiner, and BewertimgsPraktiker Nr. In 2020 Mr. Shirley developed five presentations for the NACVA Forecasting Week, including Statistics and Statistical Fallacies, Financial Modeling, Introduction To Financial Forecasting, Regression Analysis, and How To Effectively Use Benford’s Law. Mr. Shirley has previously presented to the AICPA, NACVA, ASA, ACFE, New York State Society of CPAs, LCPA, LSU Fraud and Forensic Conference, Ame1ican Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, National Judicial College, LSU Law Center, and the FBI Academy. He is a past recipient of the NACVA Circle of Light and Instructor of the Year.
Isaac Peck is the Publisher of Working RE magazine and the President of OREP, a leading provider of E&O insurance for real estate appraisers – trusted by over 10,000 appraisers nationwide. Peck has dedicated his entire career to serving real estate appraisers with the latest news, information and risk management and liability advice. Working RE reaches over 50,000 appraisers and is the most widely read publication in the United States. In his 12th year at OREP, Peck has extenstive experience advising appraisers on risk management, liability, state board complaints and claims. Peck is a licensed insurance broker in 49 states and holds a Masters Degree in Accounting.
Jeffrey Rauland, SRA, ASA, AI-RRS, is a third-generation real estate professional, and a UW-Madison alum. He started his career at China Trust in Taiwan during the S&L Crisis of the early 1990s. Jeffrey has experience as a commercial and agriculture real estate broker, as well as an appraiser specializing in complex assignments. He has served as expert witness in federal, circuit court, and state supreme court. His work experience includes: Primis, WaMu, Goldman Sachs, Opus CMC, (Goldman again), UBS, and now Consolidated Analytics. In his spare time, Jeffrey serves as a volunteer Ski & Bike Patroller & Instructor in New Mexico.
William R. Temple, ASA, SRA, AI-RRS, ACFE, MNAA, is an Appraisal Compliance Strategist at Amrock, LLC, a leading Appraisal Management Company offering valuations and title nationwide. Mr. Temple frequently contributes guidance, best practices and up to date industry guidelines and requirements. Mr. Temple is a 2nd generation real estate appraiser with over 40-years of experience specializing in the valuation of residential real estate in various positions with banks, national appraisal companies and independent offices, and worked briefly as a contract reviewer at Fannie Mae. Mr. Temple has been a member of ASA for 1-year and joined when he realized the wide variety of learning opportunities not found elsewhere. Mr. Temple currently serves as a subject matter expert (SME) with the Appraiser Qualification Board.
Byron Miller, SRA, AI-RRS, RAA, MSSE, is a certified residential appraiser and the owner and principal appraiser of BM Appraisals. His firm specializes in valuation services for consulting, divorce, estate, litigation, relocation and right of way. Hi niche is valuing complex properties and his experience ranges from agricultural, lakefront, multi-unit, and upper-bracket properties. He is an instructor, course developer, author, eminent domain county commissioner and a member of the Appraiser Qualifications Board (AQB) of The Appraisal Foundation (TAF).
Vanessa Brown Claiborne, ASA, CPA/ABV, AEP®, is the President and Chief Executive Officer of Chaffe & Associates, Inc. She is a CPA, ABV by the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants and has received her designation as an ASA by the American Society of Appraisers.Ms. Claiborne is also AEP by the National Association of Estate Planners and Councils. She specializes in business valuation services primarily for estate and gift taxes, ESOPs, GAAP fair value reporting, financial reporting, business interruption claims, litigation support including expert testimony, exit planning, and shareholder transactions. Mr. Claiborne is active both in many organizations including the American Society of Appraisers, serving as Governor of the International Board of Governors 2003-2007, Association for Corporate Growth, Isidore Newman School, American Red Cross, and the Agenda for Children. She recently received the 2021 LCPA Women to Watch Most Experienced Leader Award.
Barry Cunningham has been appraising real estate and consulting on real estate related litigation for thirty-five years. He has worked in over forty states and participated in hundreds of informal negotiations, settlement conferences, and mediations. He has testified before administrative bodies and tribunals and participated in trials in state and federal courts across the country. Half of his appraisal and consulting work is completed for public entities (cities, towns, and counties) and half for private property owners. He has a BA in Liberal Arts with an emphasis in Economics from Charter Oak State College and a master’s and PhD in Education from Capella University. He also holds the prestigious MAI and AI-GRS designations from the Appraisal Institute and the ASA designation from the American Society of Appraisers. He has completed a rigorous and unparalleled 18-credit graduate school Certificate in Mediation and Conflict Resolution from Champlain College’s Woodbury Institute.
Robert Schlegel, FASA, is a past International President of ASA, taught all four courses for accreditation in BV, taught going-concern course for RP, widely published in professional journals including BVR and a forthcoming chapter in a new TAF book on using good judgement in BV. He is a principal at Houlihan Valuation Advisors in Indianapolis as a general BV appraiser for over 30 years.
